and speaking when your item is up please fill out a speaker card. We'll allocate two minutes for
each speaker and we do appreciate if you're representing a group to let us know that as well.
So with that we'll start with item number one welcome and roll call we have our roll call please.
Thank you Chair Case. Commissioner Riley. Here. Commissioner Besting. Here. Vice Chair Newsom.
present chair case here we have four we have a quorum commissioner weingarten is i believe
out of the country thank you item number two consent calendar so this is for items to be
placed by the commissioner secretary do we have anything for consent calendar we have nothing for
consent fantastic all right at this point we'll move to item number three public communications
so we will be hearing about the rosmore pickleball courts project do we have a presentation from staff
I'm sorry, yes.
If there are any, pause on that item.
If there are any public hearing items off of the agenda,
public, sorry, I skipped item number three.
I was just so excited to talk about the pickleball.
So this is reserved for comment on items
not on the agenda.
Apologies, just got right to it.
Great, okay.
Back to item number four, Rossmoor Pickleball Courts.
Staff presentation, please.
Good evening, Chair.
Good evening, DRC Commissioners.
My name is Gerardo Victoria.
I'm an assistant planner
in the Community Development Department.
I am the project planner
for the Rossmore Pickleball Courts.
The project before you tonight is a study session
to get your input on the site layout,
the architecture, the colors, materials,
the landscaping, the lighting, and the tree removals.
So the proposal is for the construction of a 12,309-square-foot six-court pickleball
facility that's adjacent to the existing event center.
It also calls for new landscaping, new lighting, and tree removals.
So just for some context here, this is the existing event center right here.
And the new pickleball court is proposed along this area here.
So to the north is Stanley Dollar Drive here.
To the east is Rossmore Parkway.
The site is zone plan development 1483.
The general plan designation is single family medium.
The existing site is made up of a golf course along here and up here.
The event center, as I mentioned, which is here.
Stanley Dollar Clubhouse, which is right here. The Stanley Dollar Clubhouse is
designated as a potentially historic site according to the Walnut Creek
General Plan. There is a current lot line adjustment application that was
filed with our Engineering Public Works Department that will create a 2.4 acre
site along here that'll encompass the event center and the pickleball court.
The surrounding mix of uses are residential, which are right here to the to the to the west and to the east.
The existing clubhouse areas, like I mentioned here, the Stanley Dollar Clubhouse and the event center and obviously the open space.
The new pickleball facility is 12,309 square feet, which is located here.
This is the existing event center right here and then down here at this aerial
image it's right here. This is where the Pickleball Court will go. It includes a
parking lot that has 144 existing parking stalls. This project will not
require new parking. The way to access this site is through, this is Rossmoor
Parkway. You make a right or you make a left on Stanley Dollar and then there's
an entry right here. It also calls out for four new bicycle stalls. The current
event center right here is approximately 20,000 square feet or so, probably a
little bit over. So we are here tonight for design review recommendation on the
design review and the tree removal permits. This is a study session. It'll
need Planning Commission final. That date has yet to be determined, but based on
your recommendation they will approve the design and the tree rules. The
pickleball quartz design, the maximum height is 28 feet and 11 inches. Other
design features include a metal canopy entry right here with wood siding along
the front here and here. It has a permafuse chain link fence to here and
and on this side, a vertically oriented seam metal panel at the top here, and
along the rear, a sand stucco finish that's at the here and over here,
polycarbonated vision glass, if you can see it through here, natural concrete
finish at the base and exterior LED baller dome lights
with LED wall sconces.
I think I'm pronouncing that right, sconces.
This is a more clearer picture of the pickleball courts.
So the east elevation is the front.
This front is facing the existing parking lot.
The event center is on the right-hand side.
The west elevation, the rear, is facing
The residential properties of that,
let me go back to it real quick,
just so you have some, is here.
It's facing this, this area.
The north elevation is the side
that's facing Stanley Dollar Drive.
And the south elevation, this side,
is facing the parking lot
and the existing Stanley Dollar Clubhouse.
The project is also proposing to remove seven trees.
They are all outlined in green.
The one that has a star is the highly protected valley oak
right here.
One valley oak that's outlined in yellow
is proposed to be relocated.
And they are also proposing to plant 13 new trees
out of those 13, five are valley oaks.
These are the five valley oaks outlined in blue,
one, two, three, four, at the rear of the facility.
The new landscaping proposed is at the front,
and along the aisles on the sides here and over here.
They are proposing two new bio-retention areas
at the rear here, you can't,
maybe you can see it underneath the blue circles here,
and also on this area right here.
New trees, new shrubs, and new ground cover
is also proposed along the pickleball facility.
Total landscaping is 5,329 square feet.
As I mentioned earlier, 13 new trees will be planted,
five Valley Oaks here, and the one Valley Oak,
an additional one is gonna be relocated.
This also includes new hardscape along the front
of the facility.
Staff is prepared to use the categorical exemption,
the infill exemption.
We can't use this until the lot-line adjustment is approved.
There's a lot-line application that was submitted
to our engineering public works department in November.
There is a representative here from engineering
if you would like to ask her questions about that.
Staff is asking the design review commission to review
and provide input on the following items,
the site design, the building architecture,
the colors and materials, the landscaping
and the lighting and the tree removals.
If you have any questions or comments, I'm here for that.
Also, the applicant, Ann Mattola, the representative
from the Golden Rain Foundation and her design team is here.
They are ready for any questions you may have.
Thank you.
And do they have a presentation, or is it
just to answer questions?
Well, sorry.
I just wanted to know, sorry, before applicant,
do we have any questions of staff?
Nope?
OK.
Thank you.
That's an applicant, please.
Thank you.
while they're fidgeting.
I don't have a PowerPoint, I don't know if Ken did.
But I just want to thank you for the time this evening
to review this project.
Again, I am Ann Mottola.
I'm their Community Services Director at Ross Moore,
representing the property.
I have the Design Director from ELS
as well as a Senior Associate, Ken Loretto and Donna Bazzi.
And just the briefest of backgrounds,
this project has been in the works for about nine years
With Ross Moore, there are people here
that have been on a committee that started nine years ago
as it has evolved and has looked
at six different alternate sites.
We actively started working on this one
probably about two years ago.
We're very excited to get some feedback and input on this.
This is a milestone event and really
would have significant impact on the future of Ross Moore.
So we thank you for your consideration this evening.
Thank you, do we have any questions of the applicant?
I have a question.
When you said that you had considered other locations,
I noted in a number of the comments
that we received from the public in writing
that other locations, they were thinking
that other locations might be more appropriate
and the use is more consistent,
like for instance, where the bocce ball courts are
and things like that.
So were those locations places that you considered for this?
Yes.
So I don't think we have a full campus map, do we?
Something that shows the whole 1,800 acres.
So we're rather large.
If you haven't been to Rossman, it's a rather large community.
And the community somewhat centralizes
around what we call clubhouses.
And so the Bocce Court also has, within that little clubhouse,
complex lawn bowling courts.
And so that site was looked at.
But it butts immediately on residential.
And so there was also kind of the fighting for the space
for those amenities are there.
So there wasn't really enough space
to kind of look at citing it there.
We have a pretty amazing tennis court complex.
And the idea was to convert a couple of the tennis courts.
Some of the issues with that where it's situated,
the noise would have just been ricocheting.
It's kind of on this elevated depression, if you will.
And so it would have been quite a bit of a noise nuisance.
And again, it would have been kind of robbing
from one amenity for another.
There's also another place by this historic house
that we looked at.
It was kind of like an open green,
but there are picnic sites.
But there was concern from kind of entities
that really wanted to preserve more of the historic grounds.
And if they did anything around there,
move in that direction.
Where else did we look at?
There's a field space above our courtyard,
which is like one of the highest points,
but there are certain things that we need to put in there
and it would have been rather cost prohibitive
with a lot of the site prep.
So we looked at a lot of the different spaces.
We knew that noise was a consideration
and we were able to really mitigate that
in the location that it is now.
And it kind of works well and has some built-in
ancillary features like the parking
that you would need and whatnot.
and so it really seemed to be the best fit in that location.
And there's a bit of a buffer,
when Gerardo was showing the site,
oh, on this one here, you see that big green belt,
that's our golf course, so there's a nice buffer
for the housing to the west, and on the east,
there's a little bit of a buffer, some trees that break
before you have the residents on the east side,
so it really had a lot of additional amenities
to even help, even though it's a covered facility
with some mitigation.
So that's how we ended up with that site.
Nine years.
We found the site.
I have a follow-up question.
You mentioned parking, and that was one of the first things
I noted, because I've been to a number of events in Rossmore
over the years.
And parking's always been an issue there.
So are you anticipating that this facility wouldn't conflict
with the event center?
In other words, it wouldn't be open at night,
or what's the thought process with no additional parking?
Yeah, so one of the interesting things
about any pickleball project is the noise consideration.
And so we want to be really sensitive about that.
And so one of the elements in your packet
is talking about the program plan.
And really, it's data early evening use,
and events tend to happen more at evening.
And so there's additional policies
that we can work on with the club
to talk about hours of play, the same group that
deals with all of the different clubs
and the sporting clubs, deals with the managing
and the scheduling of the event facility.
So we have the ability to look at,
like when there are unusual large events
happening at the event center,
like doing temporary suspension of play
and things like that.
So it's kind of this off use,
because if you go to those parking lots
pretty much during day hours,
it's really not as impacted.
Thank you.
Do you have any questions?
So I have two questions related to trees.
The first is the relocation of the oak.
I'm wondering why you're choosing
to relocate an oak of that size.
And if you want me to elaborate, I can.
On my question about that.
I think this one was just the fact that it was,
we were adding the two accessible parking spaces,
the standard and the van accessible,
and this one was basically in the zone of construction,
which is why we were, that one was being proposed to be.
I'm so sorry, I'm Dana Bazia, I'm with ELS.
But yeah, so basically we were adding
the two accessible spaces
that would serve the pickleball court specifically.
And seeing as this tree was basically in the way
of the path that was being created,
we chose to relocate this one.
I guess I'm wondering why you're relocating it.
It seems, why you're relocating is the extent
of just planting a new one in its stead.
So a tree of that size, the expense to choose
to relocate it versus buying a new tree,
if that was taken into account.
I would have to check the report to see if,
I know that there were appraisals on the trees
and there were also the condition of each of the trees
was also looked at.
And I'm pretty sure that this one was in good condition
and capable of being relocated.
And I can double check the arborist report to make sure.
But I think that all of these trees were appraised,
and this one was in a good condition.
Yeah, I did read that in the arborist report.
It's more of a decision on how costs are being spent
with a tree of that size.
So that's just, the other question I have
is the choice of the Asser.
So I noticed on your plant list,
all of the plants were low water, except for the maples.
And I'm wondering why that choice was made.
I actually am not sure I would have to,
this would have been a question for landscape.
If it's something that we could look into.
Yeah, we can look into that.
some of the selections were made in coordination
with the landscaping scheme throughout the community
and with our landscape manager.
So, you know, it was keeping within a pallet.
If that's of a concern,
we're happy to look at other plantings, absolutely.
Okay, great, thank you.
So, I don't know who wants to answer this,
but could you talk to the issue of noise
abatement and it looks like you've done a you've done an acoustic study how does
this design react to that does there are many comments here that we we received
you probably have them and many of them are around noise so how does this design
first off does is this design reactive to to the acoustic report the acoustic
report, did it come after this design or before?
Just talk to me a little bit about that.
I can speak to that.
And then I'm Ken Loretto with ELS Architecture.
I'm a design director.
And so yes, the design does respond to acoustical issues.
There was a sound study done.
They take ambient noise levels.
And then there were a number of iterations,
which, you know, once we, so first of all,
they understand that the ambient noise levels
in the environment, and then we have a design,
and then we work with the acoustical consultant
to discuss design parameters, mitigation measures
that we can deploy that will bring the project
into compliance with standards for,
so that it doesn't become a nuisance.
And so the project there are several areas in the vicinity.
So immediately to the west, you have a golf course.
And then beyond the golf course, there's residential areas.
And then to the north, there is the clubhouse, the event center.
And then to the southwest, further away,
there's more residential.
And then on the east side, we have the parking lot.
You saw the map earlier across the roadway.
There is more residential.
And so what they do is they do the noise study.
They can model.
They use computer models, and we give them our model.
And then they have a very good sense of, OK,
given the activity within this project,
Where does noise become a nuisance to the adjacent properties?
And when they find that there are certain areas that
are affected by the noise in the pickleball,
they propose different strategies
for how to mitigate that noise.
And there are two primary ways.
One is operational, which we've talked about already.
And that is, OK, between the hours of 8 AM and 6 PM,
You play pickleball, after that, goes dark.
So that's important.
And that was an issue that was raised
during the planning review.
During the planning submittal, we responded to that comment.
They offered several different ways of mitigating the noise.
And one of those they offered was to just do it operationally.
So that was our response to that particular planning comment.
The other way is primarily building design
and a physical barrier between the activity
and the adjacent properties.
And so, as we fine-tune that,
working with the acoustical group,
what we found is that there are different wall assemblies
for physical barrier, and then,
but primarily it has to do with,
if you have a facade,
and that facade is, say, 100% transparent,
like if it's just a chain-link fence,
then obviously the sound is going to go all the way through
and you haven't done anything to mitigate the noise.
And so it became the parameters.
And then also, some of the properties
are closer to the project than others.
And so the mitigation measures are more stringent.
There's more required of you.
And so what you'll notice as you look at the elevations
is that next page.
That's good.
And so you'll see at the west elevation on the rear,
so it's the lower right-hand corner.
That is entirely opaque.
I mean, there's, and then where it is transparent,
that glass is a half-inch thick polycarbonate glass.
So obviously we want to let daylight into the project.
But so that entire wall is a physical barrier
between the activity and the neighbors.
And that's because those neighbors are in close proximity.
Then you come to the image at the lower left,
which is the south elevation.
And so that elevation is facing south and so if you turn your back to that building
and off to your right across the golf course, there are additional residences.
And so there is some exposure to them but they're also farther away,
which means if we create a physical barrier, some percentage,
a large percentage of that open area, then that's the way we mitigate.
We didn't have to close off the entire wall, which we don't want to do
because the building is naturally ventilated.
So then you'll see on the east side,
where the proximity to neighbors is across the golf course,
across the road.
It's quite some distance.
It's almost entirely open.
And so then there was, and so they have standards and measures
and decibels.
And if you exceed a certain value over the ambient noise
level, and I have the report, which I could refer to,
but then it becomes an issue, or non-compliant is
the word that they use.
And so we are compliant on all three sides,
or three of the four sides.
The one that is non-compliant is the north elevation,
but that's directly adjacent to the clubhouse.
And because the clubhouse is a clubhouse,
It doesn't need to, we don't have to meet the same level
of noise mitigation.
So, I guess the short story is that, yes,
the design does respond to the noise issues and we have worked
with the acoustical engineer, the people who wrote the report
and we're in full compliance.
So, it was iterative, I can see that now that, you know,
because I looked at the report myself,
There were like five different data points,
five different areas they looked at,
and the design reacts to those five different conditions.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's good, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, one final question.
There was concern about just the ultimate cost
of the project.
Do you guys feel, of the different sites you studied,
and of the necessary things you need to put in
for this acoustical consideration,
and for the most effective use of play,
that this is really the most cost effective design?
It is.
And actually, I think we did some value engineering
even with the design by going with this type
of modified Butler Building.
It kind of created some efficiencies there.
And basically, the board has been actively working
on future casting, the financing.
We do have different ways we can fund this.
so we do understand the concern with the community.
It's an ongoing conversation,
but there were a lot of aspects of this particular site.
For instance, many of the other sites,
absolutely, we would have had to expand parking,
demo these existing resources
and probably relocate similar type of amenities
that we replaced, so I think this really was
the best solution in a community
which doesn't really have a lot of available space.
So, I mean, it was a pretty creative way to put this
within the footprint of this little suite of clubhouses.
Great, thank you.
Any other questions from our commissioners?
Okay, so at this point,
we will open it up for public comment.
Or if I may, there's a-
Oh, yes.
I'm sorry.
There is the materials board,
and also a quick presentation
of some of the design concepts,
how it's looking the way it does.
Okay.
So first off, so we've heard about the project description
and the program, it's very simple.
It's six pickleball courts with a roof.
And the goal is to keep the weather outside,
keep the noise inside.
So again, a very simple program.
And then we've talked about the site.
We've got the event center directly adjacent to the north,
the Rossmore residence to the west and the south,
golf course to the west,
and then parking to the east.
And then there is a robust Rossmore transit system stop
at parking directly adjacent.
So that speaks to some of the questions you had
about parking, it helps that.
And then some of the constraints and challenges
that we faced, we've talked about pickleball is noisy.
And so I don't think we need to go into that
at any more great length.
Height limitations, it was important that the ridge line
the pickleball court be lower than the adjacent event center.
It is, it's at 28 feet, 11 inches and 3 quarters, yeah.
And then the event center is 35 feet,
so we're well below that.
And then, so another challenge we faced
was that it's a proximity to a golf course.
So anybody who's a golfer here, you can imagine.
But it is, the long facade is parallel to the fairway.
And then on the south facade, which if you did miss slice
right, then there are trees.
So it's a combination of the existing landscaping
in front of that south facade.
And then materials, which are durable,
resistant to a strike.
And so on that south facade, we've got cement plaster.
We have half-inch thick polycarbonate,
and then painted steel.
So we do hope that we don't get a lot of golf balls striking
the surface.
But in the event that they do, it's
designed to resist that to some extent.
Then the other challenge is that with six pickleball courts,
it's a very large column-free span that's required.
And Anne was speaking to the cost-effectiveness
of a pre-engineered metal building.
And so the pre-engineered metal building
is simple, cost-effective structure.
It's a kit of parts.
It's essentially the frames, which
you can see in that lower left.
And it is the skin, the cladding.
So that's the kit of parts.
And there's something beautiful about the simplicity of that.
What can we do with that?
So the simplicity is a constraint,
but it's also an opportunity to try not to do too much.
Just keep it simple.
And so with all that, the design solution
is that first we can talk about the building form,
keeping it simple.
The pre-engineered metal building
suggests a very simple form, kind of like a barn.
With me, the barn, that word has fond associations.
I see a barn in pastoral setting, like a golf course.
My daughter went to school in Ithaca on the way there,
western New York, beautiful barns along the highway.
So anyway, I'll stop.
And then the facades, the frames rather,
defined the facade geometry.
So there's a certain geometry that, well, if you look at the north and the south elevations,
you can see that's, we just kind of go with what the frames give us.
And then the cladding, so you have the frames and then you have a skin.
And so the idea with the skin, or the frames first, you apply the skin on the west side
and you start here.
So if you think about applying the skin, there's concrete, then there's a band of windows with
with vertical slots.
And then the skin starts just above that band of windows.
And if you think about that continuing up and over
and across, then when you get to the other side,
it stops short.
It's much more open because noise is much less of an issue.
And then when you get to the entry canopy,
that same skin turns back over and becomes,
it brings the whole scale of the building down,
so it feels more welcoming and it's appropriate for people.
And so with all of that, I can go to the color materials board.
Check?
OK.
OK.
So the materials board, virtually everything
you see on this board, all of the cues, the design cues,
the colors, the textures were taken directly
from the event center, which is directly adjacent
on the north side.
There are a lot of architectural styles in Rossmore,
so it makes sense for us, though,
right here to take all of our cues
from that significant building.
And so we could start down here at the lower right.
You see, this is the roof and wall.
It's a standing seam metal cladding system,
which is identical in the width, the depth, and the color
to what's on the event center roof.
Then this next material, if you go to the event center,
you'll see that they use wood in a complementary way
to the stucco finish.
The stucco has a fine, it's called a fine sand texture,
and it's painted in this color here.
And so I think it's a pretty,
it's an appealing material palette
on the events that are building, so we went with that.
And then the way that they use the wood as an accent,
you know, you don't see it in a lot,
but in soft, it's in certain architectural details
and in enclosures.
So that's where the wood comes from.
And then the primary material on the event center is stucco.
And so again, here's the texture of the stucco.
This is the color of the stucco.
And so where you'll see that on the pickleball barn
is on the south side, that image at the lower right.
There's that portion of opaque wall
that is to be the stucco in this color.
And then, let's see, what else?
So the steel frames, the pre-engineered metal building,
the frames that you see there where that cursor is,
all of the exposed metal is going to be,
this is an iron mountain.
We've used it in our office on these steel trusses
that resist lateral loads.
It's the kind of color that isn't trying to do too much,
but it suggests steel.
So it suggests the natural color of steel.
Chain link fence, you'll see that here in this image here.
And the, I know people have a certain attitude
and understandable chain link fence,
but I think when you drive by this building,
it virtually, it goes, it just disappears
because it's got this coating on it.
It's kind of a resilient coating, which is black.
And yeah, there it is.
And so it virtually goes away.
It's almost transparent.
And then what else haven't we talked about?
The polycarbonate glazing.
So wherever there's glass, you'll see it.
Then that is a half inch thick to resist the errant golf
ball.
And then the last detail is at the lower left, the dark bronze
storefront.
Again, that's the same color as appears on the event center.
and then we concentrated the wood at the canopy
so that you get this warm, rich material
that's more appropriately scaled
for coming and going of pickleball players.
Thank you.
Any clarifying questions on that?
Okay, so at this point, we will move to public comment.
So again, you'll have two minutes,
and if you please fill out a speaker card prior to speaking,
be greatly appreciated. Just a quick point of clarification staff received 15
emails 14 in opposition one in favor two voicemails that were both in opposition
just enter that into the record. Thank you so if you're interested in speaking
please feel free to come up to the podium and state your name. So I'm Jim
I live on Tice Creek in the sound study on N4.
The measuring device was placed in our backyard,
probably subsequent to a letter that I sent
regarding my own particular situation.
I know that a number of my neighbors,
both myself, are concerned about possible noise
from the pickleball court.
I'm, I wish I could represent all my neighbors, I'm just representing myself here because
I have a special issue, and so this is special pleading.
And my special issue is that I get migraines, I'm under medical treatment for migraines,
I get them regularly.
When I'm not having a migraine, I'm exquisitely sensitive to noise, and I hope none of you
you have that. So what I'd like to do is to point out that in the sound study which was
obviously comprehensive, they mentioned that they had a recommendation that soft paddles
and soft balls be used. And I take that recommendation seriously. And my message to you is to follow
up with that recommendation as a way to control some of the unavoidable sound
effects that are associated with pickleball. I think that's about all I
have to say. I have 30 seconds left. I appreciate your consideration. I
actually appreciate the consideration of the people at Rossmore who have actually
paid attention to this also thank you thank you do you have anyone else who
would like to speak on this item okay yes they're in the back by the door
yeah go ahead hi I'm excuse me I'm Joe Hainer I'm a resident and I live directly
west of the project one of Jim's neighbors and so I wrote some things out
This project will significantly impact the quality of life for neighbors and
reduce their property values. We moved to Rossmore for the peace and serenity it
has to offer. When we purchased our homes we had no idea noisy pickleball
courts we built in our backyard. None of us are wealthy, we can't afford to just
move away. Pickleball courts have been controversial everywhere they've been
built. It is important that every precaution is taken to ensure there isn't a negative
impact on the neighbors. It's much easier to deal with sound problems in the design
than after the building is in operation. The acoustic study only simulated the noise and
there should be follow-up studies required once the courts are in operation. We have
no real idea how sound will reverberate off the event center building. A fully enclosed
building is the best option. The acoustic engineer pointed out that quiet paddles
and balls, as Jim mentioned, could be a solution to the noise issues. The Design
Review Committee should require quiet balls and paddles. It's essential that
both are quiet. The acoustic engineer found the noise conditions in the
building to be excessive and recommended sound deadening panels. These need to be
required on the ceiling and walls of the building
to reduce noise for the players and neighbors.
One other issue that's been mentioned is the parking.
I don't think it was mentioned in the report.
If it was, I missed it.
And it should be studied.
Currently, there are times when the lot
is full without pickleball players.
Thank you very much for your time.
I have two seconds left.
Thank you, and good night.
Hello, I'm Carol Cerrone.
I'm the president of the Rossmor Pickleball Club.
Very glad to be here, finally.
We're very excited about the building.
And we so much are sensitive to the issues
that our fellow Rossmorians have.
And we've tried to do everything we
can to make it as quiet as possible.
We require green paddles, is what they're called,
which are lower impact paddles.
Everyone has to play with that.
I think that at this point in time,
to talk about values of your homes, oh my gosh.
I get 20 emails probably a month asking when the facility is
going to be built because people won't move there until it is.
And this is something that I know
is going throughout California and probably
more states in California.
So I'm going to suggest that this will up the value of people's homes.
And certainly with a club of 650 people, it's something that's important.
And like we said, nine years in the making.
People want to be able to play at least one year in that facility.
That would be so nice.
We appreciate you listening to us and all that Anne has done.
And again, we will always be sensitive to our fellow Rasmorians.
We will try in every way.
Most Ross Moreans are very physical people.
That's why we have the bicycle racks coming in.
They'll park in the old place and walk over.
It's not that far.
When there is events, we've already talked about just
talking with whoever's holding the event in the event center,
knowing that it's a big event.
We will back off.
We will do what we need to do.
It's just time, and we so appreciate that.
So thank you very much.
if you have any other interested speakers, thank you.
Hello everyone, I'm glad to be here.
My wife and I live in Rossmore for many years, 10 years,
and we live right opposite the site
where this proposed pickleball court will be built.
That is when we go out on our deck on the second floor,
beautiful view, very nice and quiet.
It's gonna be ruined.
Sorry to be so direct, but as we see it,
sorry, despite all the wonderful objections and explanations,
it won't work.
It will be bad.
It'll be too much.
And we really, really understand that you can understand
what we're saying, that it really is a difficult situation
and we're very unhappy.
Another issue is that on, what's that, Stanley Dollar Drive,
it's a very busy street and a lot of traffic on there,
a lot of people crossing the street.
This, of course, will add on to that dangerous situation.
Also within the parking lot itself,
everyone seems to be saying,
oh, during the day there's hardly anyone there.
I would disagree.
It's quite a busy parking lot
with a lot of different people doing a lot
of different things, wonderful things.
And we just hope that you can somehow find a way
to avoid ruining this situation with this idea you have.
Thank you very much for your listening to me.
I wanna cut it a little bit early just to let you know.
We appreciate your consideration.
Please, if you were living where I lived
At 2816 Tice Creek Drive, you would not be happy.
In fact, we are considering moving on to another place
if this happens.
Please help us and consider what we're saying.
Thank you very much.
Could you please state your name for the record, please?
Yeah, my name's sure, Mark Janowitz.
Thank you.
Yes, sir.
Thank you all.
Is there anyone else interested in speaking on this item?
Okay, so with that, we will close public comment,
and bring it back to our commission.
So our task is to discuss the site design, architecture,
color and materials, landscape and lighting,
and the tree removals.
And then we'll ideally come to a consensus
on what our recommendations are when it goes to planning.
So is there anyone who'd like to start us off?
Let's reverse our order.
Why don't you go first.
Oh, great.
Okay, so I had a lot of great input and thanks to ELS
and Ross Moore for the explanations.
I think, I heard some really good things.
I mean, starting with policy, okay?
So the idea of having policies in place
that eliminate the parking conflict by policy,
essentially conditional use permit type thing,
I think that would be important.
It sounds like Ross Moore is already using these green paddles, soft paddles and balls.
I think that should be a condition of approval.
There was a lot of passionate speaking about sound in the design.
I think the idea of doing before and after testing, which I've seen that, I'm an architect,
I've seen that done in similar situations.
I think that would be good.
Sound panels.
I mean, there were a few things talked about, one of which was, you know, fully enclosed
in the building and or sound panels.
That could be an either or thing.
I'm actually not sure if the design as it has sound panels in it, does it?
It does.
So, it does have them already.
Okay, so there's that, now just beyond the comments
that we received, I think, you know, we're here,
we're as designer decommissioned, you know,
we're, our charge as designer decommissioned
is to look at these things on this list.
It's not to talk about entitlement.
That's a planning commission.
We've had our fingers burned before by doing this.
So I personally am going to limit my comments
to these things.
I mean, I think I'm going to leave.
We have a couple of landscape folks.
I'm going to let them talk mostly about the site design.
I think I'm mostly going to talk about the building design.
First off, this building is right next to the event center.
And I looked, I didn't see it.
It wasn't in the package, so I looked it up.
I mean, the event center, it's a nice design.
It actually won some Gold Nugget Awards.
That building does not resemble this design very much
other than the use of color materials.
ELS did a nice job of using the same color materials,
but the application of them I think needs work.
I think it's, I'm an architect.
I mean, I'd see it's a, I see it's a Butler building.
I'm not, frankly, if I were to look at a solution like this,
I might look at a butler building like this too,
as a solution, I mean, it's long span.
I don't know if there's much that you can do about it,
but I think that you can do a better job
of addressing the elevations that matter.
So in my opinion, that front elevation,
I think you're using the right materials.
I think in the staff report, it says it's the exterior,
the exterior wall finishes are mostly wood and stucco.
That's not actually true in my assessment.
I mean, the primary exterior elevation finish
is that roofing.
And so I think it'd be a better building if you had a hot,
if you, I think the color materials are fine.
I think they match.
I think if you used more wood on that front elevation
to make it at least lock in and connect better
to the event center in that way,
I think it would be good.
I think roof pitch.
So this is gonna read, this building is what,
about 20 feet away from the event center.
It's gonna read like part of the event center,
but it doesn't really match.
So if there's something that could be done
with a roof pitch or something to make it match better,
I think that would be good.
I think, what is this front elevation is facing?
So that's facing what direction is that?
Oh, here we go.
So like that north elevation,
that actually faces Stanley Dollar Drive.
Yeah.
So, I think you could make that front elevation,
or if you could just play with the line
of wood versus metal.
Yes, make it balance it up a little better.
I know, I see what you're trying to do.
I just think it could use a little bit
of rework on the wood.
Maybe bring the wood up, don't know.
But it reads a lot like a butler building it.
I think it just needs to have more,
it needs to speak more to the event center in my mind.
I think the other elevation that is a little troubling
is that north elevation,
because that's actually very visible off Stanley Dollar.
And it doesn't really relate to the event center at all.
I like the south elevation,
maybe trying to fenestrate it a little more like that,
might make it speak to it a little more,
have a little more plaster on that side of the building.
I think the west elevation faces the golf course.
You made the right comment.
People will hit that building with golf clubs or golf balls.
I mean, I think more screening, more trees on that elevation
and on the south elevation would be helpful as well.
So those are my comments.
A lot there.
Great, thank you.
I'm going to pick on you next.
Thank you.
I agree about the design.
It looks very industrial next to a warm event center.
And it's not consistent.
So I agree that something should be done
and could be done to make it a little more consistent
with the existing structure.
I did have a question about the sound deadening panels.
I saw that there was a recommendation,
an option for ceiling panels.
And I wondered where else they might be if any place
and if you selected that option, if I could get that.
Yeah, would you guys mind clarifying that for us?
Sorry, state your name again.
It's Dana Buzzi.
We only incorporated the panels at the wall.
So any of the solid walls have the acoustic blankets
on the interior.
So that south elevation, where they're stuck on the exterior,
all of that has interior panels.
Same at the north for that portion of stucco wall.
And then anything, so the west elevation
is also completely covered with sound panels
from the top of the storefront ribbon windows
up to the roof, but we did not include any panels
at the ceilings as part of the design.
Well, is it needed?
I mean, does that meet the acoustician's requirement?
I think based on, as Ken said, based on the coordination
with the acoustic consultant and the iterative process
of the design, it seemed like we were,
what we were providing was sufficient
dead in the noise on the inside. I think someone mentioned that it was going to be a very loud
space on the inside. And lining the walls with those acoustic panels was sufficient
to dead in the noise. Okay, thank you. I would recommend if this moves forward that
they add the ceiling panels because just being aware of sort of a speaker syndrome, this
this big metal box will amplify the sound outward
and in any way that we can deaden that
for the surrounding folks, especially the migraine sufferer
because I suffer from migraines as well.
So I'm sensitive to the fact that you have no control
and there's nothing you can do, it's your home.
You can't even go in the dark and put ice on your head
and so I get it.
So that would be my recommendation to be sensitive to,
and also people need to be able to enjoy their homes as well
as enjoy their pickleball court.
So, and also I'm echoing the soft,
the soft and soft, the soft paddle, the soft ball,
as well as the green paddles that you said you already used.
I think, and I also wondered about the trees.
I'm a tree person as well,
and I'm not, I'm having heartburn
about the large valley oak being removed,
but I understand the reason for it.
So if there is a way to add more trees
and add more screening, I would be in favor of that.
Okay, thank you.
Cricket.
Yes, so for me, it's really in the realm of the trees.
I think that the suggestion both to soften the facade,
I think that that would make it nicer.
I think it would also help retain more of the park feel
that I think the residents enjoy.
So adding more trees than what you see already added
to the project, I would like to see
what that would look like.
Also just looking at that relocation
And I think looking at the cost of relocating that tree
versus just getting another tree of that equal size
and planting that instead,
I think you could probably save some money
in your construction costs.
The other thing to look at, I think as well,
would be what I asked about before,
which was the maple.
And understanding that there are plants
that were planted previously
that are part of the community themselves,
but that with the changing of our climate,
certain plants we need to sort of move away from.
And I would suggest that that is one of them
if we're looking forward to the health of those trees
moving forward.
Right, thank you.
All right, so I'll try to wrap it up
and then summarize what I heard from everyone.
We'll see if we can move it forward.
So I think this sounds like a good solution
to a problem that the community has had.
And I appreciate that you guys have really tried to address
a lot of the concerns that I heard voiced tonight
and read in the emails.
I think the idea of a follow-up acoustical study,
which may lead to extra panels and stuff,
is a really good idea,
because sometimes everything in calculation
means one thing, but in practice, it's another.
I think, for me, visually,
this isn't so much a building,
as it is like a recreation facility for pickleball.
So for me, I actually thought the distinguishing
visual character of it separated it from the event center
because it is a separate function, in my opinion,
and it's a pickleball court.
I would not want to arrive at the event center
and be confused about where to go
and what the function of something was, right?
So I like that this is not pretending it's something else.
I actually appreciate the chain-link fence.
I think people being able to understand
that pickleball is happening here
is an important part of this space.
I mean, that's what it is and pickleball is very popular
and luckily it's kind of available for people to play.
So I think letting it be exposed for what it is
is an important part of the design.
I appreciate the materials do seem cohesive
with the existing building, so that's fine with me.
In regards to the landscaping, I agree.
Maybe a little extra planting around the edges.
There's kind of one row of shrubs
around the whole perimeter so maybe making that a little more depth there
considering more trees if that's reasonable for the site plan I think
that's the gist of my comments. Okay so I'm gonna try to circle up what we all
said and see if we can come into agreement on them. So we'd like to have
the tree location reconsidered just make sure that's the most financially
responsible decision to make.
And then I heard reconsider the selection of the Acer,
the Maple may not be the best, most suitable choice.
Add some extra planting where feasible.
We all support, which sounds to already be a requirement
for the sound sensitive equipment
and policies regarding conflicts for parking
and hours of use, all those management protocols
and policies.
There was a call for more wood.
Maybe we could talk about if we all like that.
And then we mentioned adding the ceiling panels
and additional acoustical tests after.
Is there anything I missed?
It was not intentional if I did.
Or is there anything you don't strongly agree on
and you want us to discuss a little bit more?
Or is there any clarification you need from us?
Yeah, there was a few things.
There was the, I don't know if you mentioned or not,
the soft paddle.
Soft paddle, yes.
So I just said, sound sensitive equipment.
Okay, great.
And I've got a balance between the front elevation use,
or balance the front elevation to use more wood.
Take a look at the roof form,
more trees between the trees between the tweez,
trees between the building and the fairway.
Add ceiling panels, which you have.
Reconsider the maple tree, follow up acoustic study.
And there's also a statement that the architecture is okay
and that it's okay to be different than the event center.
Those really are what we wanna kind of look at.
Yeah.
Is it okay if those don't totally align?
Like are we giving?
They need to speak to each other.
Right. That's fine.
They need to speak to each other.
I agree. Right?
They're not gonna be the same.
But right now, if you looked at that design,
I went back and I looked at it.
it's very woodsy, it's like something that actually,
the event center's like something
that would be more comfortable in Lake Tahoe really,
which maybe it wasn't the right choice to begin with,
but it's a nice building and the two buildings
need to speak to each other a little more
and I think that could be done with more wood
on the front-facing facade
and some treatment on a long dollar drive there
that makes it look more complete.
Right now, it just looks like the empty end of a pole barn.
That's what it, sorry to be negative, but it does.
It just, it needs more of what's on the opposite side to,
I think, and I think as far as noise,
I'll try to say this a different way.
I mean, I think, I appreciate the fact that
we've heard the comment that more,
more acoustic panels would be great.
I think we need to have the right amount of acoustic panels and it needs to be validated.
This committee is not going to recommend a number of, but it has to be validated.
And this is not unusual in a design phase.
You know, there's still, this is still early design, they have these beautiful renderings.
But they'll have to, as long as, as far as I'm concerned, as long as the acoustician
is brought along the way throughout the design, bring the acoustician along the way to validate
that there's no impact to the neighbors,
the design will evolve as it goes along.
Maybe that's more panels,
maybe that's more solid panels on the other sides,
but it has to be,
you know, we have to give a little space
for design to happen.
Can I recommend a recommendation?
Yes.
For the acoustician to re-review the design as proposed,
And then also, the other point, which was to follow up,
once constructed, to do a study and mitigate as needed.
And mitigate.
Yeah, so we don't need.
So in our recommendations, we don't
need to require that panels be put on the ceiling.
But instead, we're saying make sure
this is actually accomplishing everything it's supposed to.
Validate it, correct.
I mean, I think I've heard a lot of voices here today
that no amount of noise is gonna be acceptable to them.
And I'm confident they're gonna go
to the planning commission and say the same thing.
I think we have to allow,
I think those are fine comments, Chip.
I think that's the way we can make it happen.
And since we're going down,
so we don't reiterate the comments
as we make these recommendations,
can we try to reach consensus on them as we go?
Yeah.
one was do the design needs not necessarily need to match but it needs
to speak to each other and you can start with the front elevation and the
elevation facing dollar drive yes does do we consensus okay good okay and then
we had consensus on the acoustic panels and the follow-up study and the
mitigation pardon after the follow-up yeah okay more trees more trees I like
to your point, was if if they fit. If they fit. I mean it always has to be
reasonable. There is a fairway, there's a building, there's a parking lot, you know.
Okay, so take a look at adding trees between the building and the fairway as
reasonable. Was that correct? Or is it more than just that area? I think that
was the primary area. That's the that's the view shed that we're worried about.
Everything else is the event center and yeah it's the west side.
The one adjacent to the fairway. I think you're I think that's the north. I think
north is the event center. Oh north is facing Stanley Drive. I think your
comment about the fact that there's a very narrow band of bushes and that they
could have more thought relating to the rest of the mm-hmm was was what summed
it up for me yeah yeah okay so can we give it into the existing yes
consider shrub lines great okay we're getting there and then reconsider the
maple tree is there any heavy feelings about that I think that's fine there's
lots of great tree options pacers are beautiful in the fall but they do need
more water so yeah I think this I'm sure that's easy for them to tackle okay and
And then I believe I only had one more.
I did not have one more.
That's all I have.
Am I missing anything on your list?
The reevaluate, relocating that one tree.
Oh, yeah.
That was a four inch valley oak.
Yeah.
Okay.
Do we have consensus on relocating the tree or study it?
Yeah.
Just make sure it makes sense.
Feasibility?
Well, financial feasibility, right, for the residents who came to the Homeowners Association.
Exactly.
Okay.
We have our recommendation.
I think the recommendation is proceed with the...
To make further studies in regards to the design to more speak to the characteristics
of the event center, specifically the front and the elevation,
what is the elevation towards Dollar Drive?
North.
That is the north.
The north, okay.
Okay. And then validate the use of more acoustic panels
and then a follow-up study after construction for use, okay.
Study the amount of trees on the west side
and consider more shrubs, beefing up the landscape plan a bit.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Reconsider the use of maple, and feasibility of moving the oak tree.
Yep.
Okay.
Outstanding.
Okay.
Do we need to roll call any of that, yes, or are we good?
No.
Okay.
No, we don't.
All right.
So with that, we will move on to item number five, commission considerations.
So this is for items that are not required to be publicly noticed, but where there is
is a presentation question answer period.
Do we have anything for commission considerations?
I know that I had mentioned before
Commissioner Weingarten is on assignments
and we're not sure what his future holds
for the Design Review Commission at this point,
but with any luck, I'll know before the next meeting.
I don't think he's gonna be here for the next meeting.
My hope is that he can stay.
I think he adds value to this commission,
but we'll see what happens.
Speaking of the next meeting, we do have some items,
and I think I asked you all today individually
if you're gonna be able to make it for that meeting.
And I think we have four, correct?
I am not.
Oh, with the exception of Chair Case.
Vice Chair Newsom will be taking the helm, right?
Okay, and I think we have three items that night,
and I'm looking for my, but I don't have it.
Oh, here we go.
Yes, we've got a restaurant over in Plaza Escuela.
We have a study session on a six-lot subdivision.
Chip, can I interrupt you for a minute?
And also a master sign program.
And then we have a signed subcommittee at 5 o'clock, I'm sorry, 5.30 on December 18th
as well.
Okay.
All right.
So with that, do we have any commission member or staff reports or announcements?
Anything from us?
We already heard from him okay, all right, we'll hold down the fort. I won't be here the next meeting
Okay, so with that adjournment, thank you all