Good evening and welcome to the joint Planning Commission and design review commissions meeting to discuss
updating signage and regulations on January 30th
2025 will the secretary please call the roll
Commissioner quack here
Commissioner Ward is absent commissioner clock
Commissioner Reiser is absent commissioner nating here
Vice chair Anderson is absent chair strongman here
I believe chair chase case is absent
Vice chair Newsom here
Commissioner Basting here
Commissioner Riley here
Thank you, and I'm it's my understanding. We do not have a consent calendar
Correct. Thank you, and we'll move on to public communications for the opportunity any member of the public
We should just discuss any item that's not on the agenda is welcome to approaches and talk to us
Seeing nobody racing towards the podium
We will close public
comments
And move on to our public hearing
And um
I believe we'll start out with a staff presentation
Thank you very much. Um, america van and brand community development director
And I'm also serving as the project manager for this project.
We have our consultant, Mintier Harnish,
which I'll introduce in just a second,
but I just wanted to give you a little overview and so forth
of the project.
I'm sure that you've all experienced,
throughout the time that you've been
on your respective commissions, questions around signage,
why it is the way it is and trying to make sense and also provide guidance to people
as signage is coming in.
It's our intention to be able to use this process, and it's a process, but also an
outcome to ultimately have a set of sign regulations that are congruent with what modern-day signage
requirement might be and for its usage for a variety of needs, but also to have it be
congruent with the city's needs at once.
And when I say the city, I don't mean the city organization, I mean the community.
And so with that, I will turn it over to my colleagues here, our consultants from Mintier
Harnish, who will introduce themselves and then start going through the presentation.
So thank you.
Wonderful.
Well, good evening, everyone.
Thank you so much for being here.
And thanks for allowing us to talk at you for the next couple of minutes.
My name is Michael Gibbons.
I am a project manager with Minteer Harnish, the consulting team that was selected to assist
the city in this project.
Along with me is Nicky Zancheta.
Nikki is a planner in our office and as the project planner on this project.
And then in the back of the room is Brent Gibbons.
Brent is a principal planner at our firm and
will act as the project director, perform QAQC on the project.
Tonight is going to be facilitated as a study session.
So we'll start with just a brief presentation and
then we'll really open it up for discussion.
That's kind of the real intent of this evening.
The goal of this evening is to not only provide you an update on this project how you can participate what you can expect from us
But it's also to bring you up to speed on sign regulations
It's not every day that commissioners are dealing with signs and there has been some legal
Legal changes and to what you we can and cannot regulate so hope to provide you an
Crash course if you will on sign regulations as well
So I'll start with just a brief introduction and overview
Of how we got here really this project started in 2019 with the following goals
Clarify the intent of the city's existing sign
Regulations and the role that the city plays and regulating it
Update the city's signed standards of the actual regulations and then also update with that the city's design
guidelines for signs.
So we have this guiding document that we're updating in addition to the actual standards.
And really, the purpose of the overall update is to create, as Erica said, a contemporary
code that addresses new technologies, problem areas, efficiencies, and overall just create
a new sign regulation that address local needs.
mentioned this project started actually in 2019 we are no longer in 2019 but we
did a lot of work before this project was put on pause due to COVID. So we
started up this project initially with some stakeholder interviews those
consisted of industry leaders I believe we had some commissioners on there at
that point as well and we had a series of questions that we led we actually
facilitated those stakeholder interviews in this room in 2019. We summarized that
feedback. We developed a working group similar to what we will be developing
again for this project and actually had come up with a what we call a fix-it
list which is really just a checklist to-do item of all of the changes that
the city was hoping to incorporate when we initially kicked off this this
initially kicked off this meeting. We provided that feedback then to City
Council and then the project was unfortunately put on pause for quite some time. We fortunately
restarted this project back in last year with a kickoff meeting with Erica and her team where we
went over the objectives and we looked at what the scope of the project would be today and adjusted
that to really what the city is hoping to get out of this project in 2025 being that there are some
some desires that have changed since 2019.
There is a new commission.
We have a new council.
We have a new design review commission as well.
So getting your temperature as to what you would like to see
in these updates and how we can craft them
so it meets your expectations as we're on the road now.
Currently, we are at the start of this project.
We're technically in the project initiation phase
where we are, this is our first time meeting with you.
This is our first time to get feedback
as to what you're, again, what your expectations are
for this code.
And what we hope to do is receive your input tonight.
And that will ultimately kind of guide us
as to the next steps and what we do next, how involved
we make these changes.
Are there certain areas or hot topic items
that you would like us to address?
So that is an overview of the project.
As mentioned, a large portion of this evening
is to really also bring you up to speed
on sign regulations, almost a crash course.
So I'm gonna hand it to Nicky
to lead that portion of our presentation.
We'll then end with, I'll end with an overview
of what are the project objectives today
in this new project restart,
and then open it up to a discussion with both bodies.
Great, so as Michael mentioned,
this is just gonna be a little bit of a crash course
signs and sign regulations. I think we're all pretty familiar with signs. We see
them in our everyday life, but we're going to go over just what and when
we're going through these regulations, how to kind of think about signs, and
what to keep in mind. So we'll go over just what we are mean when we're saying
signs, the legal framework for sign regulations, and some of the do's and
don'ts and best practices of sign regulations. So what is a sign? Really it
can be anything that is meant to provide an identification description
illustration of that's a communication of something whether that be commercial
or non-commercial and is meant for the general public and directing them in some
way shape or form for a product service or place and signs can be temporary or
permanent and used again for either commercial or non-commercial purposes.
And signs serve a lot of purposes they can be we see them in our everyday life
and even when we don't think of something as signs a lot of times we this
whole project is really kind of diving deep into the different signs that we
we see on a regular basis and and how we want those to look in the community. So
signs can be help people with finding places and locations whether that be for
wayfinding or providing directions of when of street signs or road
identification even property addresses are a form of signs and ways to identify
neighborhoods or landmarks within the community and overall typically signs
are are meant to convey some type of information and whether that be for
regulatory purposes like a no parking sign or warnings for hazards or safety
reasons, and then also just informational or descriptive signs to provide
information to the community. And we also use signs to support safe travel for
pedestrians, cyclists, public transit, and for vehicles. So those can be safety
signs or, again, wayfinding signs. And they also help promote economic
development so that is gonna be especially in business districts and
any business has assigned to let you know where the business is and any kind
of monument sign like you see in this top picture that shows the businesses
that are within a shopping center and so they are very very important for for
businesses and economic development. So getting into a little bit of the the
Legal framework for sign regulations. So signs are a form of speech that are protected under the First Amendment and
that what that really means especially at the local level is that signs can't be regulated based on the
Content or subject matter or any ideas conveyed on the sign and that's going to be a really important thing to keep in mind
while we go through how we're going to regulate signs that we're not regulating content, but we're
mostly regulating the the presence of the sign and
there's a few of the thing there are a few exceptions that are commonly accepted for
for signage is
That's not protected under the First Amendment, which is any obscenity
anything that's inciting violence or illegal activity or anything that could pose a safety risk of resembling a traffic safety sign and
So there are a couple different types of speech
They're both protected under the First Amendment but might be treated a little bit differently
depending on the situation.
There's commercial and non-commercial speech.
Commercial speech is really anything related to the sale of something and the biggest thing
that's different from any non-commercial speech is that really it can't be misleading, inaccurate,
or relating to illegal activity.
speech that's really anything else so that can be reflecting any personal
political or religious views and any personal signage on a lot of times on
personal property as well and that's really highly protected under the First
Amendment and is something to make sure we keep in mind as we go through
creating sign regulations. So what does that leave the local authority is to be
able to regulate. So local jurisdictions do have the power to regulate signs and
that the main goals of that at the local level is to protect the health, safety,
and welfare of residents and businesses and controlling community aesthetics. So
a lot of times that's common in maybe a business district or historical
district where you want the signs to look a certain way and to maintain that
that architectural style.
And then just removing clutter,
whether that be visual or physical clutter
within the community.
So sign regulators, the way we go about
creating sign regulations that aren't infringing
on freedom of speech is really avoiding
content-based regulations.
So one way of looking at sign regulations
make sure that they're not content based. Typically if it is content based, an
individual would have to read the sign in order to know how the regulation
applies. So if you have to read the sign to know whether or not that regulation
is gonna affect where that sign is, that's probably a content-based regulation
that needs to be readjusted. Also the purpose of the sign regulation is to
regulate certain subject matters specifically. If a subject matters called
out in the regulation, it's most likely a content-based regulation that would be
infringing on freedom of speech. So here are a few examples of content-based
regulations. These are very, very general, but a lot of times, as you can see, for
like this first one, that churches and schools could have wayfinding signs at
intersections to direct students or parents to a certain area of the
property, however not allowing those same types of signs for any other type of
use, whether that's for an event or for another business or something like that.
That would be a regulation where a certain use is being regulated
differently for using types of signage than others and that would be considered
content-based regulation. I won't go through all of these but these are just
a few examples of where it calls out either certain zoning districts and
certain types of uses on that property are regulated differently when it comes
to signage than others. So the best way to go about sign regulations is to avoid
to avoid the content-based regulations
and keep it content neutral.
And there's really three elements that you focus on
for local sign regulations, which is location, time,
or duration, and appearance and design.
So for location, this would be,
regardless of what content is on the sign,
restricting where certain types of signs may be allowed.
so whether A-frame signs are allowed or freestanding
or if they have to be mounted.
So that's not regulating the what's on the sign
or who can put up a sign, but just where it's located.
Also, where it's located on a building
can be considered content neutral and also restricting
the locations of signs by property type, which
would be more of on a residential property.
Any sign, regardless of what the sign is,
can only be located on certain portions of the property.
Time or duration would just be restricting
how long temporary signs can be displayed.
Again, regardless of content or the times of day
that signs can be on display,
especially for lighted signs.
That might cause some kind of nuisance,
but again, not depending on the type of sign,
not based on what's on the sign.
And then appearance and design, this is I think where a lot of sign regulations start to come into play.
This is really regulating the height of signs, how many signs are posted,
whether they are lighted or have any movement, the colors, the fonts, the sides of the lettering.
Again, these aren't content-based.
These are really just how the sign looks and feels
in whatever community or neighborhood or the street
it's on and who it's serving, not based
on the content of the sign.
So that's just kind of a very quick overview of things
to keep in mind as we go about this project
and thinking about sign regulations
to make sure that where we are regulating what we can
and aren't infringing on any First Amendment rights
and don't end up in any sticky situations in that regard.
So I'll pass it back to Michael to go over the project approach
from here on out.
Thank you, Nikki.
Yes, we want to avoid sticky situations.
And that's actually probably built into our approach.
But with this project restart, here at least initially
are our project objectives.
What we've been working with your staff to refine.
And there's really five.
And what would be great in our conversations this evening
is, are there more?
Are we missing anything here?
But first and foremost, what we've heard
and what we've been tasked with doing
is creating clearer and more flexible standards that
can allow for innovative design, while still allowing
some sort of control locally or some certainty
in how you know your designs will look.
Another objective here is to reflect contemporary trends,
so shopping trends, emerging technologies,
so electronic reader boards or big touchscreen boards,
how are we addressing those, how are we incorporating them,
and regulating them.
We also having changes in shopping behaviors, behaviors,
and preferences in advertising that we see companies doing.
We see kind of innovative newer logos where we're dropping text
and it's just a logo, and how are we addressing that?
Is that a sign?
How is that taken into consideration?
So this is really what our core objectives are.
And our approach is this.
We are still going to be conducting and putting together
a focus group for this project that, at least as of now,
Erica can correct me, will be a member of the DRC
and then a member of the Planning Commission.
And those individuals will be our working group.
Those individuals will see working drafts,
initial drafts, provide us initial feedback,
and really almost act as the kind of reporting body
back to the various commissions as to how the project is going.
We also plan on conducting some online engagement
for this project, specifically targeted at the business
and the development community.
We'll do that via an online questionnaire.
It'll be interactive, really honing in on what is acceptable
for regulations, what are new trends, what are developers
and the business community seeing that are deficiencies
that we can address.
We'll also have an electronic engagement.
So we'll have a website that's going
to be hosted on the city's actual website.
We'll have our own web page for this project.
That will be a hub for this project moving forward.
So we'll have all of the draft documents that come out
for public review there.
There will be an ability for people
to sign up for our email list, which we will also
be having as well as part of this outreach in which we'll
send some periodic emails out through the city's listserv and email service provider.
And then we'll have some occasional update meetings with both of you.
So the DRC and the PC, these will be more kind of informal updates by planning staff
as to just bringing you up to speed on where we're at.
So that is really our project approach.
As mentioned, tonight is really the opportunity for us to solicit feedback from you, see if
this approach is in line with your expectations, if there are any fix-it list items that you
have that you want us to know about, now would be that opportunity.
So I'll hand it back to the chair.
Chair, if I may also add that, you know, a real key in this is to make it easier for
So make it easier for the business community, to make it easier for staff to help assist,
and to make it easier for you, too, so that the answers back to those going through having
signs are not no or it depends, but rather, you know, clarity about that so that there's
less ambiguity, but there's also the room for creativity.
Okay, thank you for your presentation.
We'll start out with questions for the presenters.
I'll start out with design and review.
Who, any questions?
I'll say one.
You know, when we were talking about
the council objectives going forward,
one of the big objectives they have
is diversity, equity and inclusion.
And how does that play in to this work?
Because I mean, I think the thing that comes to mind,
Number one is obviously when you're doing businesses and so forth, they can do whatever
they want.
But like if you're doing any kind of wayfinding signs or those, are there other languages
to use pictograms?
What strategies do you use?
So yeah, I think you're honing into the accessibility of the document.
So these regulations will be codified using your e-codifier.
So I believe, I can't remember if you use e-code or is it muni code?
there is the ability in those online platforms, or at least there should be, to translate
languages.
So that should be something that's built into your municipal code already, I believe.
What about the built environment?
So, I mean, if you're – it sounds like the scope of this is – I mean, I was coming
in here thinking this was maybe just commercial science, but really you're talking about
everything.
So, if you go into a public building, and there is wayfinding, how do you ensure that
that you're speaking to everyone and inclusive
to people of different needs and so forth.
I mean, I'm an architect, I get this question all the time,
so sorry to throw it at you,
but that's a common question I get.
Yeah, I mean, so a lot of those items I think
then you'll know are building code related items,
so ADA, so we will not be touching those items,
how you will get around inside of the building.
we're really looking at is the exterior,
really the signs on the outside of your buildings,
your pylons, your directory signage,
plaques that are on potentially personal homes,
really anything inside the function of the building
will really lead to the building code.
So we won't be kind of touching on those.
Now, can we incorporate some design standards?
Certainly.
I think I'm not telling you how to do your job.
I'm just telling, this is a question
that will be asked more than once.
So just look at it in that lens.
Sure.
Where it's appropriate, I mean,
you're not gonna do it on house signs,
or you're not gonna tell businesses what they have to do,
but in the public realm,
this is gonna come up, I think.
And it's an emerging question that we all have to ask.
I mean, it's one of the objectives of the city council
that I heard that they're talking about.
So if I may, I'm taking your question slash feedback
and input and that more is feedback and input,
that there should be an element or dimension
that's included in the body of work that's done here
to acknowledge that that is a facet or a characteristic
that you're interested in.
And so is it, and from what I'm understanding
is that it's kind of when and where would it be required
to have different languages on signs and things like that.
to what extent.
Question I get I do public building so it's a question I get all the time and I just know
sooner or later it's going to be asked of you so just start thinking about it.
I can chime in here Brent Gibbons principal planner and interior harness.
There are other communities that we worked in across the Bay Area that start to bring
in other languages that represent the city in which they're located into public signage,
wayfinding signage.
I can think of a few on the peninsula, and so there are opportunities where we can make
signage more accessible via language on them, and we can definitely take a look into how
that could be applied here for other wayfinding and accessibility techniques.
It's a question to ask.
And I think it's important because we do live in a diversifying environment, and we want
to make sure that policies are inclusive of everybody
within the community?
Yeah, the other kind of big, you talked about trends.
That's really important, you know, there's things
like now they're lighting whole buildings
like Salesforce Tower, a whole building can become signage.
Lastly, durability, so many signs particularly
in the public realm are just not designed well enough to last.
We're doing a project at Foothill College right now
where everything has to be replaced, it's less than 10 years old, doing a signed project,
everything is faded, so you have to follow that lens and somehow find a way to make things
more durable.
And what kind of signage are you seeing at that facility?
I mean, that's a college, right?
So it's in the public realm.
They have a lot more wayfinding, and I think you said that there's not a lot of wayfinding
that you do, but as you approach public buildings and really anything where you're walking up
and you're seeking to get in the public realm outside buildings, wherever you need to be
able to see the sign, so many times those signs fade and you lose all the information
on the sign.
So some care has to be put to that when you create standards for people to use for design.
Thank you. Who else would have questions or comments? I guess we could do comments at
the same time. OK.
I do have a couple of questions to kind of understand a little bit better where the extent
of the scope of the project would be. And so I think I saw a flyer either by email or
on social media about the city seeking input about the signage and was looking at the different
pictures that were put on that flyer as examples of what the project would be looking at. And
One of the signs that I saw but I think was like the street name so like North Main Street
or hitting the Valley, the ones that are kind of stuck on the traffic lights.
And so, my initial impression of the scope going into this meeting was that it was just
going to be signs that are more not related to drivers or to, it's more towards businesses
and to things that are not tied to the street, if you will.
And so I was wondering, I wanted clarification, will the scope also include, in the sense
of community aesthetic, will it include the appearance of the signs on the streets?
So a qualified maybe.
And the qualified maybe is that, you know, in terms of standard street signage, you know,
main street, et cetera, usually, you know, there are some standards that are put in place,
you know, for traffic safety and so on.
And this project really isn't meant to try and reinvent and reimagine that.
But there is also signage that in the downtown as an example that are more wayfinding oriented
or there's also talk in various places about wayfinding like in the shade lands and some
other places where it would be helpful to have some guidance on how that occurs.
So that's where the qualified yes is.
And so it's not necessarily here, the city's, you know, traffic, you know, what's going
by traffic lights, etc., but if there's other elements of wayfinding signage to be able
to, whether it's to help a driver or walker, a bicyclist and so on, those would be helpful
because it's not just us, the city, but it's also, you know, many campus environments,
That we could help support those efforts if that makes sense. Yeah, that's very helpful. Thank you
elsewhere
Yes
So hi. Thank you for coming and updating us on this fascinating topic. I
do recall a
Approval process we had to go through earlier this year of signage for commercial building that I think both went to design
design review and came to us and I think it there was an education process for me
about what businesses are looking for in terms of their interest in articulating
who they are and drawing people to them and having it be really a part of their
value proposition for the property so I hope that that sort of emerging world of
of what the businesses want
because we want to be business friendly.
We want to attract them here to Walnut Creek
is included in the project.
So does that make sense?
It does and it is.
Thank you.
Anyone else for right now?
I'll jump in and with my suggestions.
I was thinking about it all day
of different new signs that I've seen.
And the Wall Street Journal had a article today
about businesses or corporations
basically rebranding apartment complexes to say Fiat,
instead of whatever, so as that's projecting out there
to this is the Fiat building.
And there was one which we might need to cover
a little bit as to do we allow that
to happen as much or not.
There's also, if you look in places like Shanghai
and I believe Hong Kong,
the skyscrapers become at night entire ad,
running ads systems.
And there's a little salon on Locust Street
that at night projects down on the sidewalk.
They're basically named kind of a slide.
I'm not sure how they do it, which is different things.
Yes, Melissa Garage.
And that's my comments right now.
So are you getting the information you want from us
right now or do we need to keep talking?
This is the opportunity for you to provide us
with anything, any guidance, any insights
that you want us to explore as part of this project
because ultimately signage comes before one or both of you
and sometimes before council.
So just wanted to make sure that we're capturing
all views and perspectives into your earlier point.
You know, we're gonna be having similar conversations
with the business community
and then the community writ large.
One question I have is could we have different standards
for different parts of the city?
Obviously, downtown would be one standard,
but maybe out more residential,
usually residential areas have a different set of standards.
Is that conceivable or desirable?
There can certainly be done a lot of sign regulations will tie back to a zone
So that that could certainly be done where we group certain residential zones together and apply specific sign standards per for those zones
Okay, I got a few more things since we're just
Did I interrupt you I think the community inputs really important I think
I've been on the science subcommittee for I've been on the design review Commission for
two and a half years or whatever and
I've been doing the science subcommittee for and there's a lot of hot but hot buttons. I think
It's good. The survey is good
That's really important. I think you're gonna want to do specific outreach to like the Downtown Business Association
and better Business Bureau because
They show up at our meetings
advocating for businesses
and
There's kind of common themes that we see
about the standard. The standard as you know is really old. I mean, I think the things that we're seeing now are like
people will want a pictogram on the building like
Chick-fil-A. Well, how do you regulate that? I mean not not to not to mention anything, but we know exactly, right? Yeah
Okay lettering heights. Okay. How do you measure a letter when it's going like this?
And and okay if all the letters if it's an eight inch standard and they want to have one twelve inch letter
What do you do there?
It would be really good to go read some of the variances that are requested because
it's like a common theme.
What they call skyline signs, signs on the top of buildings.
People do not like those.
Area, it seems like the amount of area that we allow on the sides of buildings is out
of date, right?
And number of frontages is a common ask.
And some of the things people are asking for are pretty reasonable.
Of course, if you go ask if you go have a retail business, they're going to want to
sign everywhere, and we can't allow that, but it is good to go look and see what people
are asking for and decide, okay, well, maybe we can do a dialed-back version of this.
Also, the other thing that came up, blade signs.
I mean, there's no real provision for blade signs, but they're asked for again and again,
So it would be good to develop a standard for that.
That's a good idea.
What's a blade sign?
A blade sign is, when you're walking down the street,
there are signs that hang out and project off.
So as you walk down the street in Walnut Creek,
you won't see too many of them because they're not allowed.
But if you go to other cities, as you walk down the sidewalks,
they have signs that are hanging out, smaller signs that say,
oh, here's where the coffee shop is.
We're all familiar with the signs.
We just don't have them here in town
because they're not allowed.
Sometimes there's been specific exceptions,
but they're actually pretty good on streets like this
that are narrow because you can't really walk away
from the building and see them.
Everything's very tight, so it's a nice thing to have,
but it's also, if you can have them,
you have to regulate them, right?
Thank you.
Go ahead.
Yes.
Speaking of when you guys were talking about zoning,
sorry, different zones for the signs.
It's not, it's very similar to way development regulations
or form-based code zone is.
It's about what zone you're in.
And each zone has specific density.
And so I think that would be good in order,
when we were looking at the signs for the commercial,
a lot of the things that we had discussed
was adjacency requirements, which is very, very typical
when you're talking about form-based code zones
development regulations which are the objective standards and so seeing where
that sign is in comparison to what is the zoning or the land uses adjacent to
that sign right and so that's where when we were looking at that building we're
saying okay if it's here what's around it is it single family multi-family
height restriction and so I think getting being able to have sign
regulations that just that has a juxtaposition of the different land uses
that are allowed. The other thing that we also talked about was lighting and for
that particular project there was one light that faced a commercial street and
again the other one had the adjacency to the single-family residential and so
there's many cities for example let's say hey the maximum is 2,700 Kelvin which
is like a warm inviting light because of the adjacency and so but you wouldn't
put that you wouldn't want something so dim where you're in a more robust...there
seems to be something where the city has these this great place where you have
activation and again those development regulations about the stoop has to be
like this or you know the the setback it's because there's areas where you
want to activate and there's areas where you want to subdue a little bit and so I
think to your point, actually everyone's point, if we could take it by zones
think about adjacency, think about the land use and we tie, we almost tie it to
our own land use how we break it up. So it's very objective versus being
subjective and that could be lighting that's the size to your point right like
where if you're facing it could be the same building if you're facing this
particular zoning or if you're faith in the back is facing this zoning because
that's that's what a downtown is on the other thing that kind of came to mind is
there's a different look and feel also that Walnut Creek has and it's
beautiful for this, where you are in a residential zone, and then there's like
quaint little areas that feel Broadway has a very specific feeling, and you get
that feeling as you're walking through that whole area, and then you kind of
walk through the older part of downtown, where you have the Crate and
Barrel and Alephorna, it has a different, another different feeling. I don't know
if that branding that the city did, if it happened naturally, happened stands, or if
it was something that was very intentional, but I think that that would
be something good if there can be some intention about your walking into a
certain area and I agree with Commissioner Newsom also about
longevity of the signs and not having to continue to replace them because the
last thing we would ever want to do is have these poor owners replace signs
which is actually quite expensive. So the materials is worth it if it's going to be there
for a long time. And then the last thing, and then I'll stop talking,
is there seems to be great places where signs are more earthy materials in the sense of like
no electronics behind it. And there's a great other, there's other places where you do want
to have that you in your presentation you talked about technology you know and
about Shanghai how things light up and so I think there there could also be a
time in a place where you have the lights that are touch or you know I'm
just kind of thinking about the art that is all around Walnut Creek and there's
some of the art that you can touch and feel and others are signs like don't
touch the big head. And so if there could be that incorporation of this sign is
meant, you're not gonna have just a regular old, like I think about my
three-year-old, like where she wants to touch something, like don't touch it, you
know, so if there could be some places where the sign is meant to be touched,
it's meant to activate that community because we have, I remember you were
talking about how you do wayfinding for art, you know, and so I think that would
be pretty awesome if we could have that sign incorporate some of that activation where
it could and then in the other places where it's just that grandeur of a stone a marble
a metal whatever that may be.
One quick thing, so there's a building that came before us about a year ago, Mendocino
Farms it's down on Ignacio and they branded the whole building.
So where do you draw the line about what a sign is?
I mean, they basically, if you look at it, it's all patterned.
And when it came before us, it was like, I was thinking, that's pretty clever.
Because the whole building is identity.
But where do you draw the line on that?
And so sometimes they'll have signs, the letters will be right, but then they'll actually have
expanded areas of paint.
So really, looking at where that edge is, I don't know if that makes any sense.
Along with those they used to back in the early part of the last century have the entire
building look like a shoe or something like that or an orange or something, various other
strange things.
One question I have is something we need to consider is assuming we go through this process
and we approve this whole new system, what happens to all of those older businesses that
may want to replace their signs?
Will they have to—is there a process they have to go through or a permitting process
Or they just be able to as long as they conform to the new pattern
Don't know yet, and that'll be part of the discussion. I just have one
basic question is
The purpose and maybe everyone else is clear on this
But is the purpose to completely rewrite what we currently have as our sign regulations or?
Are we updating them?
So from my standpoint it is trying to first look at
what is desired so what's the outcome that's desired and if it requires
rewriting it then yes if it's a tweak that you know essentially saying okay
eighty percent is good and then here let's deal with this twenty percent but
to be able to answer that question definitively at this point is going to
depend on what the feedback we get from the business community the feedback we
get from you feedback we get from the community overall and to see where
those were that interest and that feedback overlaps with our existing
regulations and if as you know council as Commissioner Newsome had mentioned
that there are many exceptions to those rules and if the exceptions are so many
that the rules make sense for clarity on purpose to re-write the majority of things, then
the recommendation would be to go there.
Okay.
Because it seems that in my short time on the Design Review Commission, many of the
things that we look at are making exceptions for these types of things.
It's a commonplace thing, so I think it would be good to address that suggestion.
other comments questions I had additional comments that came to mind
while I was listening to the remarks of the fellow commissioners here one was I
think it would be important to consider as somebody who travels around the Bay a
lot and I'm often visiting different cities because my family is around the
Bay I often I think it's important to consider how the associations that come
with certain types of signs so for example we have a mall in the South Bay
called Valleyfair. It's a very large mall and some of the signs that I see
there are like electronic interactive directories to help find stores. And I
was walking through downtown Melon Creek the other day to go shopping and I
realized that these signs in downtown Melon Creek are like, they're
stationary, I think, paperback signs. And so if we were to update those signs to
like electronic interactive directories, would that give the downtown area a more
commercial shopping field that might kind of lose the charm that the
downtown currently has. So I think that what are other cities doing to create a
certain impression on visitors to the city? Or even if they visit
certain neighborhoods or commercial districts, how do the signs help to
reinforce the overall impression based on where those visitors are from and what
they know from the signs in their local cities. I think it's kind of the general
impression, reinforcing the impression as we travel around the bay. Thank you.
Longest line, I think we need to come to agreement on the aesthetic. What is
Walnut Creek supposed to look like in general? If we could want to rent the
ghost with his comments because we don't want to look like necessarily downtown
and so to say, or San Francisco for that matter.
It's an easy thing.
I always use Las Vegas as the alternate example.
I thought I did.
I'm sorry, I wanted to bring up your concept of zones
and addressing what you said,
which is the different characters
and the different places in Walnut Creek
and being mindful of that.
And I also wanted us to be mindful of something
that Erica presented to us when she came to us,
which is the council's request and requirements
for this project, which includes the equity
and diversity piece, but some other pieces also.
So I just want to make sure that as we move forward,
we encompass both of those concepts
because Walnut Creek does have a really distinct personality
in different places within it.
And some places like Shade Lens are completely different
than downtown and deserve different treatment.
Thanks.
Question? Other comments?
If I may, just one point to that.
I think one of the benefits of this particular project
is that we're addressing two tools.
We have your actual design standards,
how tall something can be, what's the area,
how many signs per.
And then we're also looking at the design guidelines.
And when we're doing guidelines, we
can be a little bit more subjective in the way
of what we're suggesting and what we're recommending
unlike the design standards are.
So we do have that ability to look at potentially
different areas of the jurisdiction
and specify different design standards
or the intent via those guidelines
if that's something that also interests the city.
Other questions, comments?
Are we running out of comments?
I think people agree we're running out of comments.
Therefore, should we turn it over to our secretary, what would you like to do now?
This is a study session, so a motion and a vote is not needed.
So if this is all the comments that you want to provide to staff, then we can move forward
with the next agenda items.
have one quasi-actiony item which is the volunteer-volunteld. So we're actually
if we conclude our discussion we need to find sacrificial lambs from both
commissions. If nobody else stick my neck out and say I'm willing to do it unless
somebody else would like to do it. What is the expected time commitment for the
working group? So I don't know entirely right now but I'm going to use as a
benchmark our Apex projects of the commitment we have asked of staff
internally for variety of projects and basically you know it's looking at like
maybe you know eight to twelve hours a month at most and some of that may be
homework but that is on the most rigorous end I would say and then we're
going to be doing our level best to make it a lot easier to be less than that but
I don't want to you know set unrealistic expectations oh you got half an hour and
then it's more so it's better to do it the other way. Are the meetings in the
evening, the day during the day.
It is the preference of the volunteers.
Are you interested?
Are there meetings?
So there'll be some level of meetings.
And I think that we have been meeting with each other
virtually and so forth.
So for those who volunteer, we will come do it your way
to help support you in helping support us.
So it's more of a, you tell us how you'd like to do this
and we will help support you.
It's more like, kind of like the designer view standards,
that type of thing.
That is a process that you're very familiar with,
so I'd say yes.
Yes.
I mean, I'll do it unless one of you wants to do it.
Okay.
I'm happy to volunteer.
Put my name out there.
it would be an interesting project for me especially as one of the newer commissioners
to really get in depth get my hands on what we do as commissioners and to really kind of learn
this side of the city and think about it long term as a relatively young resident of the city as well.
I'll second that motion no.
And I've been on the opposite side where I've had to place applications so on behalf of the design
community. I'm enthusiastic about it. As the project manager I'm deeply grateful
for their volunteers. I will do my best to make it fun for you along with the
consultant and then to make it productive and painless. Okay with that
in mind I have anything else we need to do and any commissioner staff reports or
considerations. None at this time. In that case we're adjourned and thank you all
for coming and thank you for a great presentation. Looking forward to see the
results.